Saturday, October 13, 2007

Help Me Out Here #1: Fulfilled Laws?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. KJV

How can laws be fulfilled or brought to completion? I understand the concept of fulfilled prophesy, but laws? What are the laws being fulfilled, and how does it work?


Stef said...

I always have to preface my posts with the fact that I am not a scholar... but I think that that verse is referring to Old Testatement prophesies which warn the Jews of a false prophet who will come and destroy the laws. The jewish faith today believes that Jesus was this false prophet, while Christians think that this false prophet is the antichrist to come. (you can read more about this in Deuteronomy 13 and 17 and Daniel 7.) Jesus here is speaking to the people and saying that he has not come to abolish the law. Jewish people think that since Christians follow a "new covenent" - the one formed through Jesus - that Jesus did away with the historical Laws. Jesus goes on to say in that passage "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." He has not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the prophecy held in the Law of the coming Messiah.

stef said...

When Jesus is referring to"The Laws" and "The Prophets" he's referring to the old testament. "The Law" refers to first five books of the bible. "The prophets" covers the Major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), the minor prophets (the 12 others) and the former prophets (Josua, Judges, Samuel and Kings).

Stacy said...

Ok, that makes sense, so what did he do to the law? He fulfilled the prophesy (at least in the eyes of Christianity)...and he _________ed the law...?

He had to do SOMETHING to it, else Christians would still follow it to the letter (or tittle, whatever).

Jared said...

They don’t know. Nor do we.

Scholars are still debating the relevance of the different Greek meanings of the word “fulfill” used in Matthew. Is the Torah obsolete/abolished or just have a lesser importance? Interpreting this concept of fulfilled Law through the Synoptic Gospels is ridiculously tedious, and practically impossible.

The REAL problem here is the infinite communication flaws. Face it - Jesus was a very poor communicator. If God had a message, you would think it could be universally understood and communicated well.

Not so much.

lovewillbringustogether said...

Hi Jared! One blog visit deserves another i always say ( well i didn't before but i did then :-) )

Soooooo... Stacy's here too huh? What a nice surprise ;-)

In case you ddn't read it in my blog comment - I'd rather you didn't call me a xian, christian or new christian if you don't mind.

I study many things and one of them is Christ. Another is the Bible, but i am not an expert on either and have not had a lobotomy or otherwise been converted to any religion. My Background is strongly Atheistic.

I live and learn however.

Which brings me to your post. (or is it actually Stacy's post on your blog???)

Stef made the observation that Law can refer to the Pentateuch or first five books of the Bible written supposedly by Moses after his face to face with the Lord - God Almighty of the Jews.

You think he was just making it up? Dragged a bunch of escapees around a desert for 40 years on some ego-based power trip and wrote five books when no one could actually read only to continue the Joke for the next 3000 years?

Maybe you guys should try it sometime? Good luck with the longevity ;-)

The bible is never an 'easy read' but it does have quite a few answers if you can get 'in to it for yourself and not trust some other wierdo's version of what it all actually means - again try it sometime and see.

Stacy - you might need to remove your hatred and disbelief of it first - tough job i'm guessing?

For what it's worth coming from a total strange to you...

I think JC was talking to those (like Stef suggested) who believed in both The Law and The Prophets - especiallly the ( in my opinion! ) leeches who got their kicks out of keeping the masses from thinking for themselves and just gabbing with God one to one - mano a mano! The priestly classes.

he was telling them He was the Fulfilment of all that was prophesied concerning their Saviour and religious doctrines and that also The Laws which were given to the Israelites because they had forgotten just who this God was and what he was all about and gave them a set of strict legal obligations to meet in order to fulfill their covenant with Him Made after the Flood wiped almost all of em out before.

Cruel - but Fair i think! ;-)

He (JC) was now providing a new and better way - some followers had proven they could be 'trusted' with free will and were capable of moving past the Law into a new covenant with a truly loving God.

( Kind of like we do to our kids - we're totally strict and instill fear in them to obey us initially - Don't touch the stove - Burnies! Ouch! - then mellow out and eventually just let them do their own thing when they become rebellious and we either can't be bothered anymore or just kow they don't give a sh!t anyway) Fortunately God has more patience. (seems he was a tad testy in his youth though!) :-)

Where was I?? Oh Yeah...

So - ONLY FOR THOSE WHO GET IT!!! - there is a New Covenant! ( the 'slower kids' still get to suffer under the Laws till they do, if ever, wake up) with just ONE Law...

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind - and the logical conclusion to that of do unto your neighbour (and every thing) as you would HAVE THEM do unto You (NOT as most dumb-asses try to make it out to be and do what you think they are going to do to you first!)

Jesus provided a fulfilment of L and P for those who could accept it and work their lifetimes to maintain it - if we don't then the Law has to stay - that was what he said basically :-)

There are going to be those who 'need' it for all eternity - as short as that may or may not be!

Like I said the answers are (mostly) all in the actual Bible if you can be bothered looking with an open mind and have the intelligence to sift out the chaff from the grain.

Hey, if it was easy we wouldn't be having this 'conversation'.

Hope some of that helped a litle with your q? :-)

Feel free to drop by and comment any time.

Darn! I thnk i broke the 200 word 'limit' - never was any good at following rules of da Man! :-)

Jared said...

LWBUT -- Thanks for coming by! I'll take have a response for you sometime Sunday or Monday depending on when we get back. We're hitting the road in 15 min.

Take care.

Stacy said...

Hi "Love"
It's difficult for me to really respond to the randomness of your comments here. I'm not sure what would ever make you think that I have not spent time reading the Bible, or that I thought Moses made up the writing that was attributed to him for fake out a whole generation of Jews.

My actual question was how is it that a law can be fulfilled? Perhaps my intellect is inferior to yours, and that is why I don't understand it. Or, perhaps, like some have said, I don't have the "Holy Spirit" guiding me in my reading of the scriptures. And one more "or"...perhaps it's just a bunch of shit that doesn't make any sense at all, but millions of people for millennia pretend that they understand what it means because they're "supposed" to.

Whatever the case, my question hasn't been answered. I didn't expect it to be, anyway.

Regarding the blog, it is mine and Jared's. We each post as we feel moved by the Lord to do so.

lovewillbringustogether said...

Apologies for the ramble.

Apologies for the feeling i was only addresing you with some of the comments you referred to. Sure you read the posts and sure it is your and J's blog but others read things too - not many apparently - but you never know who's listening to what you (I) say. ;-)

The problem is not the answer - it's the question!

You are way too tied up on a literal interpretation of the one word 'law'. Words as you MUST know have and carry more than a single meaning in many cases - makes it tough to be certain of some things but that is what we have to deal with every day of life we speak about concepts with words that can only approximate them.

We do the best we can but perfect understanding from words alone ain't ever gonna happen - deal with it or be forever disappointed - ok?

Faith can help 'bridge' the gap - perverted faith can also turn us away from truth.

If you don't get that then we don't seem to have much more to discuss?

Hope you have a great life.


Stacy said...

The disscussion may be 'over,' but there are other questions and discussions to have. As long as the final explanation is that one must have faith and not lean on his own understanding etc etc, then I've got my answer. Faith cannot be debated or argued.

Can you tell me what you mean by "perverted faith?"

lovewillbringustogether said...

Always happy to explain myself! :-) many people just can't get what i mean the first time round ( or the second, third, fourth..) ;-)

By Perverted faith i was referring to any understanding that 'your' ( as in anyone's) own corrupted kind of logical thinking (WHY isn't pure logic taught in school anymore???) reveals to THEM about Perfect faith in an imperfect form, causing them to either refuse to believe or to believe in dumb things like - "you're going to HELL!" and "i'm saved cos i think i am".

Could you agree?

You can't get to faith through reason alone - it must be experienced and personal - you don't get it from reading any book - even a very old one!

What you can do is clear up any misunderstandings you may personally have picked up through discussion and agreement - not 'debate'.

But you can't have someone else's faith and i certainly can't give you (nor would try to) mine! :-)

Thanks for your comment on my blog!